Check on class restriction

[Zervun]

Can a non admin check, if they are on the server with less than 6 people if they can pick the scout class

[Rhazjk]

Just checked for ya, tried choosing the scout in the empty server, and it said something along the lines of "No Scouts allowed with under 6 players". It then randomly rechose my character so I guess it works...

Oh right..first post..hi phlorphies!

[Zervun]

Awesome! thats what I was hoping, I'm going to hack it apart later this week so that admin can't do it either just don't have the time right now.

Welcome to the boards

[Worry]

does it stop people who were already scout, then the server drops off, then they die....from respawning as a scout? Or I should say, is it supposed to? If so, it doesn't.

[Zervun]

it has a few quirks - if it's coming from you it's because you are admin, and by default the plugin doesn't block admin

[Worry]

sorry, I should have thought you would ask that. No, it wasn't me and...I don't think it was an admin. We had 7 or 8 players, a few people left and we were down to 5 and this person was still a scout for quite a while after.

[Zervun]

ya it won't fix that situation unfortunately

[TrashedDT]

ya it won't fix that situation unfortunately

Then what GOOD is it?!!! Just kidding! I don't think it's bad if there is one scout, just so long as there is only one per team. It just gets dumb when one team only goes scout.

By allowing atleast one scout, you don't push away those players, who usually only play scout, from helping start up the server.

[Infiltrates]

By allowing atleast one scout, you don't push away those players, who usually only play scout, from helping start up the server.





I agree strongly with this.

[Worry]

But...then you have people on (like the other night), that feel the restriction should be a higher number as it's still too easy for a scout to run around untouched when the server is 3 aside.

I think it depends on what the goal of the plugin is. If it's to improve the game play for all regardless of the numbers, then a class restriction at those times when the counts is low is not that big a deal. the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few; or the one.

Infiltrate was on goofing around with us last night and seemed like a really good guy. I'm sure he wouldn't mind playing a different class for a short time while helping to kick start the server. People often have to choose a non-favorite class, for the benefit of the team, when there is already too many of that class. This is not much different.

[TrashedDT]

But...then you have people on (like the other night), that feel the restriction should be a higher number as it's still too easy for a scout to run around untouched when the server is 3 aside.


Are you talking about more than one playing scout? Cause I've had my fair share of "server startups" and "end of the night lineups" and as long as there isn't more than one scout I haven't had many problems because of the class, unless that person is generally good at that class, but the same is true of most classes. I believe in class limitations, but atleast one of each class should be allowed. When one team goes "all scouts" it usually ends up that the other team has to go all scouts to have a chance to win, or go with engis and end in a stalemate, but I believe that a limit of one scout per team doesn't create this problem.

Now many things can be said about a 2v2 or 3v3, and with so few numbers it should be communicated to work out some agreement to make it fun, or the server dies out anyway, but removing the scout class altogether doesn't help any imho.

[Infiltrates]

or keep scout limited to ZERO but also limit soldier the same way. In fact I'd prefer this over allowing scouts.

[Worry]

I'm just voicing the other sides opinions as I've heard them expressed to me. I understand their point. Most players get owned by a scout, one on one. You're a freak of skill, and don't count.


How ever the server is set up is fine with me. If it strikes the balance that makes the server full, with cool, mature players and as long as I leave less stressed, i'm happy.

[Infiltrates]

I feel a limit of 1 per team would be fair
and I mean 1 of each class per team
until server has a higher number of people than (X) youname it, anywhere from 2 to 6 to 18, it's still the fairest possible class restriction setup, except in those cases where a terrible player takes the most important class for your situation.

The way things are right now favors soldiers in an unfair way (no balance) considering the rock/paper/scissors aspect of the game, and demotivates me from wanting to help start your server. and I know there are others like me // I rarely join a server without bringing people.


If you're gonna have class restrictions at all, it should be in the way mentioned in this post.

[Zervun]

Changed

Per team up to 6 people total, only 1 class allowable of all except scout, 0 of them up

After 6 people on everything allowed

Will be getting the "admin" fix in this next few days so admin can't break the rules.

[Zervun]

And, I just fixed it so admin have to abide by the rules also, just an fyi

[Infiltrates]

Per team up to 6 people total, only 1 class allowable of all except scout, 0 of them up


It's a start but we're still not addressing the issue

[Zervun]

You just said in an above post that you wanted "1 class per team", and thats what I did, just without scouts, which are the only class that is not allowed. At least up into 6 people.

Having scouts under 6 ruins the game more than anything else, they can just run and capture with little consequence and that was my main objective.

What would you like me to do differently.

If you mean restriction up to server ceiling (ie 20) I can implement something like that also, like restricting every class to 2 - 3 per team.

We have a possible of 10 people per side, and I think it's only 100% fair to at least have 2 of whatever class per side.

[Infiltrates]

Having scouts under 6 ruins the game more than anything else, they can just run and capture with little consequence and that was my main objective.

What would you like me to do differently.




Change your outlook on scout, I guess? But that probably won't happen so I'll just wait till you have 5 from now on

[Zervun]

Change your outlook on scout, I guess? But that probably won't happen so I'll just wait till you have 5 from now on

Being that I've started up the server no less than 100 times, and have at least played over 100 hours with it at low population, the worst thing that happens is getting on with under 4 - 6 people and there are one or more people that are scouts. All the do, is run and grab the flag and run back, or take over points. Due to their speed and agility, very rarely can you even encounter them in their path to and from. I'd also like to say that I like being a scout.

It is no fun to be on a low populated server to not have any contact with players that are on it, which happens with scouts.

I find it very ironic that you complain about soldiers. While their crits are to much right now, they are the same across any number of players. Scouts can literally avoid them completely on low number servers.

The bottom line is really the only class that is completely unfair at a certain population level on the server is the scout. Due to the size of levels, the scout can completely avoid contact and capture points/flags with nearly 0 risk. There is no counter to them at low population because due to the width/size of the level they have a massive amount of space to move in where classes like the pyro which can counteract them, cannot get close enough to do it. The engineer might be closest, but it is fairly easy to strafe/shotgun a sentry down in most situations.

I can put up another vote for it, but the reason this came into play was a massively overwhelming response that everyone was being scout on low population and it sucked.

At the outside I might think of putting it to no scout up to 2 people, then only 1 per team until 6

[Salt Lick]

Today there was a full server. Then one team decided to do massive scout rushes. The server was dead before map change. Scouts = Bad

[TrashedDT]

Today there was a full server. Then one team decided to do massive scout rushes. The server was dead before map change. Scouts = Bad

I've seen the same thing with Heavies as well. If a team coordinates and the other team isn't expecting it, All heavies, All scouts, All medics, etc is very effective. These combinations have counters, like if they rush a lot of scouts, have the team go heavy + medic and get SG up. The problem is usually getting one's OWN team to cooperate. The other team is going to keep doing what they are doing as long as it's effective, so one might as well change his/her own strategies!

[Zervun]

Ya my main concern was more over the "under" 6 people on the server. Once the server gets going it's fine, but I've fielded alot of complaints when it's low population over class choice.

I'm fully open to suggestions on how to fix it.

[Levi]

I agree with not letting scouts in when the population is low. Its not so much that the scout is overpowered, but they can just run through and grab the flag or CP's with no effort [ At least I know I can :) ]. Another reason this sucks is because if this is happening, it often means someone on the other side has to play engineer to counter the scout. I find engineers and incredibly boring class to play, and I'm sure a lot of other people do as well.

This doesn't really apply to all maps, but it does apply to most.

[Infiltrates]

At the outside I might think of putting it to no scout up to 2 people, then only 1 per team until 6



This would solve your personal vendetta with scout, without undermining the integrity(balance) of the game. Srry but if it's 2 on 2 and 1 scout is capturing your points or intel while untouched then your team must be doing something wrong.


If you're actively trying to stop a scout (no, that doesn't mean engi, it means camping the objective. Demomen/heavies are good, pyro as you stated above (just not on all parts of the map) and it's still raping you, then it's just a good scout, and same types of situations can happen with almost any class.
For example, I know a soldier that will dominate me almost 99% of the time when i'm scout, regardless of map size, 1 on 1. (I was 1-37 against him once and 0-48 another time)

Thanks for your consideration though

editted for typo fixation

[Zervun]

well, what I'm arguing is that a scout has run of the board, at a massive amount of speed.

Your soldier against you has to be literally situational on when you run into the room, ala the intelligence room. Over 80% or so of most maps you have free reign (flag and certain capture only).

[Salt Lick]

Balance? Scouts aren't balanced. A bad scout is useless to the team and a good scout is just annoying. They promote bad gameplay. No other class kills servers like scouts. A lot of people feel the same way to some degree. Want a poll? I play TF2 for fun, not to spend my time sitting on the intel so that a scout doesn't just shuttle back and forth the whole round, avoiding combat. I am satisfied with the current limitations but wouldn't mind stricter ones. Quit yer complainin'!

[TrashedDT]

Sidenote: Hey Salt, Infiltrate is expressing his view, as is Zervun. They share their points without attacking each other. Please let's keep it that way.

Personally I would like to see people be able to play the class they want. You can't keep things fair in this game all the time. People are jumping on and off and changing class. This game is always changing. Your team maybe rocking the other team and then one or two players switch and the results are reversed.

The key to this game is the ability to adapted. If the numbers are low and the other team comes with scouts, then one must "choose/change to" a class to counter that. What I'm getting out of this thread is people are angry because a scout is forcing them to have to change class to counter them. But that is exactly what's happening by limiting the scout class, the scout player is being forced to play a different class. For this reason I agree with Infiltrates, that if you want to be "fair" you have to restrict ALL classes. I don't want the server to go this route though because, though it's "fair", it's not popular and the server population will suffer.

TF2 is not much fun with few people playing normally, period! Certain classes aren't effective when teams are small, which classes suffer depends on the map. When a server is starting up, or winding down at night, if the players want the server to stay populated everyone must agree to "implied rules", like melee only, or the server dies. Forcing people to follow rules is just going to make them leave faster.

[-={ICE}=-Cobra]

I don't like it, scouts are one thing but to restrict other classes is too much. Personally I won't join/stay on when numbers are low.

[Zervun]

Well, for the time being I have removed the class restriction plugin all together until I figure out what I'm going to do.