Ode to an update.

[Fraggles]

Ode to an update.
Written by Freya C Olsen. Ninth of the First, Twenty Ten.
Mainly fueled by my dislike of the Eyelander and equalizer.

EPIC WALL OF TEXT FOR ANYBODY WHO CAN BE BOTHERED TO READ IT.
Excuse my poor grammar. I couldn't be fucked to clean it up.

Now don't get me wrong,
it sure started out strong.
with new items and weps,
there was choice for the schleps.
Medic was great, His unlocks were top notch.
Never a more effective way, to fire needles at your crotch.
The Kritzkrieg was big fun, a totally new game play style.
Though to grow accustomed to it, did take quite a while.
Uber saw needless to say was just great,
I give it the highest marks that I can rate.
So with such a fun start I just have to wonder..
Why on earth did everything get torn asunder?

With Pyro came the first of valves faults...
How disgustingly over powered he was sure gave us our jolts.
The axetinguisher though first underrated,
It's power was soon found to be undebated.
The flare gun gave the class something to choose,
For that I don't think valve deserve any abuse.
However the backburner was genuinely an insult.
More health for a strong class gave us new wounds to salt.
Plus now they can bounce us around...
Like a giant child in a ant's playground.

The deterioration at this point was barely to note.
and with Heavy came a new ray of hope.
His unlocks were weak but were all fun ways to play.
They made you feel like logging in the next day.
Sandwich although grossly under powered.
Made us laugh for hours and hours.
The KGB was a tough choice to make...
Kritz attacks or taunt kills plus the speed they would take.
Natasha was useless except against scout.
To this day that is something that holds true and stout.

Now look on valve's next move and let's weep.
Because the gifts they gave to scout scarce let me sleep.
He was already a right little nightmarish terror...
But now add flight, stunning, and speed into the measure.
The Sandman although sapped you of your double jump,
made your enemies still enough for a poodle to hump.
FAN's reloading and access to basic flight,
Made you a obnoxious little filthy blight.
and now we come to the bonk energy drink..
I had nothing to say and I still don't I think.

At this point the game's unbalance had started to swell.
It was getting easier for what class was best I can tell.
Then although spy's arrival was amusing and welcome,
It gave us all terrifying things to raise hell from.
The Cloak and Dagger was a great new invention.
Mister spy was now easier for those with a vast span of attention.
Dead ringer took the opposite track,
It was basically a never die ever nick nack.
The ambassador made me laugh all day long,
The head shots were cool as well as the mother joke that was oh so strong.

I don't know what they were thinking with this next update,
I know many a player this has made quite irate.
Poor Sniper got the short end of the stick,
Only one of his unlocks was worth even half a pick.
The Jarate is a amusing and useful item,
Although now closeish combat had to be hand to hand fight em'
The razorback now tell me what the hell they were thinking...
Just after the ambassador and all that rotten stinking?
Now the huntsman, there's a small joke that has steadily become worse.
It's so underpowered it should be hauled out of the game in a hearse.

Now I'm taking a break from my pattern so far,
Because this next bit makes me want to smack valve with a crowbar.
They've steadily sapped lots of the skills afore mentioned,
Also added new things into the contention.
Giving scout back his double jump kinda made sense,
Taking away Pyro's health was a bit off the fence.
Force of Nature was just made better and better,
Although Heavy's stuff was left like a stinky old sweater.
Why didn't they improve the classes that started off weak?
As opposed to the ones that made the rest meek.

The start of the war was a whirlwind of bright new fun,
My main's a medic and I prefer soldier to kritz and then run.
So every day there were plenty of my favourite class,
To follow around and help them kick ass.
Naturally they won, and the unlocks were released,
Who would of thought this would make the fun in this game decrease?

I'll need a few lines to discuss my distaste,
For the Eyelander and the entire demo race.
I'll get back to it at the end I'm sure,
Because that fucking weapon makes me want to punch the floor.
Charging Targe made the Demoman undefeated and spited,
Now he can run and also never be blown up or ignited.
The scottish resistance is just a TAD wrong...
Especially when from spawn the final point can be held strong.
Now I'm chucking in more hate for the Eyelander...
Around corners? Instant kills with wide range what's there not to slander?

The thought of what they did to my soldier makes me cry.
Back to heavy I guess, except they find it hard not to die.
Gunboats? Kinda useful I guess.
Worth losing a friend over? Doubtful at best.
Banner is cool and useful but never used.
Rallying the troops better than a uber seems odd to not abuse.
The Direct Hit... Oh great, like the rocket launcher wasn't strong enough.
They really chose a AWESOME weapon to insanely buff.
Equalizer makes me scream curse and shout.
Nothing better than popping uber and having them pull it out.

Thanks valve for yet another fun update.
For fueling some true artistic hate.

I just have to ask when you intend to Nerf the new unlocks?
Because until you do this game is a ticking clock...
Just something for me to do whilst looking for something else to hold my attention.
Because the way things are going water is not in retention.

So thanks valve I'm strong behind my belief that you're to blame
For the updates that have ruined my very favourite game.

[Milesprower]

Kudos to you my good lady.
It's a good thing I don't really play much TF2 anymore, it feels like the fun has been steadily sapped from it, and I totally agree with you. Except the Dead Ringer bit, where's the love? :<

[Your_Typical_Mental]

Very inspired, Fraggles.

I still find the game fun but there's plenty of issues.

[Levi]

I love my equalizer.

But I do wish they'd get rid of the "can't be healed by medic" bit.

[Salt Lick]

RIP TF2

Dunno what to call it now. It's sure as fuck not TF2 anymore.

[Ripskin]

I liked the pyro updates once fixed, the heavy ones are decent, the snipers are eh, and the medics are great. Classes are weak for a reason, just give players a new way to use them. Scouts are still too strong but not bad, now that the ball does not stop you.

Demo's sword and shield need to go, soldiers flag needs to go, and his direct hit needs tweaking. With those new items they are no longer their class, but filling a completely new role which defeats the purpose of having different classes.

I could go on and on but wont. Still love TF2 but its not as good as it once was.

[Fraggles]

Honestly, I don't hate it as much as my poem would indicate. But you don't write a poem that's half hearted. =)

[Grassman7z7]

Well, the whole point of the updates are to give them a new role.
What, are the weapons just supposed to make them [I]better[i]? That eliminates the point of Classes, when one is just blantently better than another.

That isn't to say that they havn't accidentally 'buffed' some classes, but it isn't the intent.
Demo is more Offensive due to Sword/Shield/loss of stickies.
Scout was more Defensive due to being able to stun Ubers. (Although, now it's turned into a little bit more of jsut a plain buffing, like Soldier)
Soldier can now play a little more defensively. The Banner lets him buff allies, keeping him near the rest of the team rather than Solo-ing. The Direct Hit needs a little nerf - if you are good, its only a benefit, if you aren't, it only hurts. It lets you make that choice, but ultimately widens the gap between new and experiences players.
Medic can go Offense or Support, depending on Loadout (This update is done the best)
Sniper can choose to go either Long Range or Medium/Short Range (Also a well done Update, I say. Except for that Razorback - useless)
Pyro's Backburner is only a plus, especially when it had a health boost. The airblast is good (I can never seem to get the timing right thought) There is no reason to not use the Axestinguisher - if you are in Melee range, they SHOULD already be on fire, so free crits!
Heavy can loadout based on Offence/Defence (Natasha if on Defence and there are lots of scouts, Sandvich lets you play more on your lonesome, or help out a Medic if need be)
I'd say that Pyro, Demoman, and Spy need some fixin', and some fine tuning for a few more. Otherwise, VALVe has done what they have originally intended - give these classes different roles to play.

[Fraggles]

Yeah, I'm not against the variety. I liked things like the flare gun... Totally new and different thing, whilst still being very balanced.
But some of the unlocks are just unfair. =| My class I think got the best of all. Totally new tactics and usefulness on all my unlocks. At first the blutsauger was just a upgrade. I do like that they made it different.

[Grassman7z7]

They did a good job with the Flare Gun, and also the recent changes with the Medic/Heavy Unlocks.

[Ripskin]

Flare gun came from TFC and was originally part of the pyro's load out.

The point of the update is not to change the role, but to suit different play styles within each character. That is why the original updates are so good, they do not change the character but they give different players and their styles a way to use the character.

The original Medic in aspects was a great offensive character with the crit needles and such. The new needs allow him to heal himself and defend slightly so it balance him out. The new saw gives him a reward to killing something up close. The new heal gun allow's him to utilize crits to mow down a lot of players which as the other was used mostly to save lives.

The Heavy, easily out run can now slow a player down at the loss of a little damage so that he and others can inflict more over some time, or get ones that would normally be able to make good their escape. Hist gloves allow him to get some limited crits which if used properly are devestating. The sandwich give him a way to be more of a solo player instead of being glued to medics most of the time.

The Pyro updates where horrible at first, but now are fantastic. The back burner keeps the same role for the pyro class, but allow's those who can sneak behind a player inflict massive damage to a few before getting killed or discovered. They lost the airblast but thats a different play style for the pyro. Giving him a massive HP boost just to carry that made no sense, same with his flame out reaching out as far as it was. The ax is great, weak mele weapon but if he can get you on fire and connect it gives an alternative play style plenty of opportunity. The original ax is still a VERY good mele weapon, but different people like it vs the axtinguister. The flare gun again is perfect for the class, and came from TFC. I dont use it as I dont like it vs the shot gun.

Scouts are an offensive class primarily, but can fit a defensive role if the player is good enough at the class. The original weapons are great for this if used with his crazy mobility. The Force of Nature has a few very annoying bugs, but keeps the class the same, just lets him use different combination's to kill, or just to blow people out of the way. The Sandman's idea was good, however the ball's hitbox is rather off, and the way it parked you was bugged. The update that allows you to move while bonked is great and removes almost every complaint I had against it. The soda is cool, and again fits the class perfectly, lets you zip around and "scout" things out or try to sneak past some things to attack the rear or move the intel forward.

The Sniper updates I do not really like. The Bow is a great idea, but is all wrong, an arrow loses power over distance, it does not just arc down a little. As a result if it connects it does a LOT more damage than a high powered rifle. Regardless of distance it is easier to get an HS kill with as well, which does not make sense in most cases. The piss, neat idea and works with the class, not for me though. The back thing is balanced and serves a purpose that some find great, again, not for me.

Spy updates are good for the class, and best allow different players to get in on the class. Those with high accuracy now can do head shots, they loose some power as a result for regular shots. The different watches really change up styles for the players. They keep the class the same but now players can attack in 4 different ways and change it up each death depending on their skill and the other team.

The Soldiers updates are half and half. The banner changes him to be more of a Medic style so everyone rally's around him instead of the crit / HP giver, he can lead attacks but why make him the center vs the medic who has that role already? The Direct Hit is great, love it. Just too strong, and if reflected it does NOT do the same damage back on the one who shot it. I believe it took 4 direct hit reflects to kill a soldier, (and yes, each one hit). Allows soldiers who are great at hitting players do good damage, at the loss of group damage, each player has a different preference. The pick ax, too strong but again, fits with the character just like the shovel did. It needs to not give him so much low HP speed, but the berserk low HP idea of it is great for the character.

The Demo man updates are stupid. The sword is completely out of character for a dunk explosives expert. Not only is it completely out of character it changes his whole role, and is way over powered. One hit decapitations, speed rush into groups of players, crit power and everything. The shield is an idea, but why a medieval one? Why not a blast vest or something more useful? Such a small shield increases his defense and "armor" a ton, a normal 1/ 2 hit kill is now 4 - 6 hits to kill for a light class... The new sticky system is great and perfect for the demoman. I have yet to ever see it, all I see are OP Eyelanders zipping around the map insta killing almost everything with the shields out.

Valve just seems to be just going crazy with the update system now, forgetting what the classes are for. If they keep it up the almost might as well just make everyone play as the same class and pick the load out that they want. No point in having the separation and distinctiveness that they spent over 6 years designing.

/wall of text rant.

[Fraggles]

Yeah. I will agree with you for the most part. I've never really had any issues with the updates this this recent one.
But they make how underpowered the already not great weapons are a lot more noticeable.
Not one of the new unlocks are any good. I notice you don't even mention the gunboats? =) I have no guff with the new sticky thing. My house mate loves it... But it can be ridiculous. You can detonate them from anywhere on the map, as long as you're looking at their vague direction.

I more felt like writing something. Quite proud of it~

[Ripskin]

Never seen the gunboats, they are a decent idea as I like to rJump a lot, but I dont want to lose my mobility speed so I doubt I will use them.

Once balanced the other updates work well and keep the class roles specific, but give players several new ways to use that role.

This last update just changed everything accentuating how OP and ridiculous they are making them all stand out.

I have not yet seen the new sticky gun in action so I cant say much about it. Detonating the sticky's from anywhere is not a huge deal, can do that now. Just hard to see what is there to blow up if anything. Every demo I have seen is using the stupid sword / shield. It could be OP from reading about it but until I see it over and over or get it I cant say.

[Grassman7z7]

Here's the thing. Different Play Styles and Different Class Roles are very similar.
They could have never updated classes, but instead released another class, very similar to the first except catering to this new play style.
VALVe has given the players the option to mix and match these classes as they feel fit, filling out their own preference and ultimately their own role. Whether or not it works is up to debate, but the option is there.

My favorite case in point is the Battle Medic. Before the update, there wasn't much behind the strategy of two medics running into battle. Sure, you could do it, but that specific role was not available. Now, with the new weapons, you can choose between these two roles (And more recently, you actually get a negative benefit for having the Battle Medic load out if you are playing Support Medic)

They could have easily just released a whole new class, gave it a name and a personality, and had the same effect. Those who prefer Support Medic can play Support Medic. Those who prefer Battle Medic can play Battle Medic.
They just consolidated the two classes into one.

EDIT: I've nothing against the new Sticky Launcher. It does work as a boon, but if you don't have much experience with the maps you will have trouble locating where your stickies are, and therefore unable to detonate them. However, everyone is too busy wielding the Targe, so its difficult to ever see in action.

[arnold.from.oregon]

What about the dumbass crafting thing? Where is a big fat bag of poo for that stoopid idea?

I am a little under impressed with the soldier and demo updates. Seem like a waste of programming really.

[Grassman7z7]

Seems like crafting was the only solution for unwanted/duplicate items. I mean, if they have trading, who's going to want to give up a hat for 15 Flare Guns? No one.
Seems like they could have made it more accessible, but it's really the only working way.

Perhaps a better solution would be a store, where you sell unwanted Items for money, and then buy they stuff you do want.

[Ripskin]

I'll have to disagree, the separation between style and role is huge IMO.
Battle medic pre / post update is very similar. Only real difference is now they can use the uber saw to recharge faster. Otherwise its the exact same thing to have to medics running in. If they have the regular needles then they can get crits stock. Nothing changed except falling back and attacking can give health / uber charge.

Scouts still have the same job, their weapons just help screw players up similar to the Scout in TFC. Concussion grenade is the bonk ball. That grenade also pushed players out of the way, just like the FoN does. Same role, different way to play it.

Valve painstakingly gave back story and "character" to each of the playable classes, and most of the upgrades have not changed the "role" of the character. They have fit with what we know of the character through voice sounds, meet the "" movies, and the overall look and feel of the game. The Sword and banner are so out of character for each and the entire game taking away from what could have been a funny or really cleaver / good update for the classes. Makes me very worried about what they will do for the next few classes....

The crafting this is retarded. Never used it nor even looked at it. They need to go back to achievement based unlocks. Or better yet, kill someone with it, and then if you can pick it up off the ground its yours.

Don't feel like typing more into this, so I'll pull out of this thread.

[Grassman7z7]

"Black Scottish Cyclops" wouldn't have anything to do with a Sword called The Eyelander, hm?
Soldier, self-proclaimed war-hero would NEVER want to be a leader, hm?

Those seem to fit the character quite nicely.

[Fraggles]

The sword's called something appropriate.. But his character doesn't suit it. They could of done so many cool things but decided not to. Like really short range explosives or something. Hand held vials of nitro that let off little pops and make people scatter... I don't know... That's just something I punched out with my imagination right then. Suits the Demoman 100% more than a sword.
The banner doesn't suit a loon either. He's not a strong leader... He's a psychopath that gives lectures to disembodied heads on a fence. He may THINK he's a leader... But basically he just takes my job my rallying together people. If anything the medic should get the banner, so people will actually cluster around a uber rather than just "Well, good luck guys. Hope you kill some people."

[Salt Lick]

I spent the last half hour writing a five paragraph standard format essay on the consecutively more fucked-up updates for TF2. Then I realized most of you fellas don't give a rats ass about anyone's opinion and probably won't even read this truncated version.

I played the SOE game "Planetside" from beta. I still consider it one of the best MMO games *released.* I quit when they reassigned the dev team, brought in a cheap new one, and turned the thing into a retarded "WHAT IF" anime battle. The same thing is happening with TF2. The big difference is that Valve already has all the money I'll put into Team Fortress and does not give a goddamn fuck about my opinion anymore. They are trying to appeal to those that have not already bought the game. Good business strategy. Wrecks my game. A lot of 3rd party devs have known this for a while; Valve does not care about the original fanbase or community any more. Even releasing simple offsets is not worth their time. They're going for the remaining market and it is not us.

Bye guys. I'm playing sporadically on the EXO server now simply for the lack of care it provides. I haven't had a fun game on Phlorph in well over a month. Thanks, demomen & scouts, for clearing the server three times daily.

@Zervun: No offense intended. I've been on your server for years (remember the Fairbanks Ping-Man guy?). It's just not fun anymore.

[Zervun]

Well I could put in a class restriction plugin again like 2 max per team of any class.

I played planetside for a long time also since beta man they ran that into the ground.

[Zervun]

I've put in a class restriction plugin, which limites demo's and scouts to 2 per team.

If you guys need something or have a suggestion I'm always listening. I don't have time to play much but I can make changes. I know I have been lazy on the maps.

The server is here for you guys not me. I don't like what valve has done with tf2.

Z

[Milesprower]

Yeah, even with a class restriction in, I still just can't find myself having fun with Team Fortress 2 anymore. The name is generally an oxymoron, implying that somehow people will work as a team when the majority of the time, it's very untrue. The updates have progressively made the game less enjoyable, and this last one really has put the last nail in the lid of the coffin that was my love for Team Fortress 2.

While I think Salt Lick might be a little overboard on his dislike, I agree with him for the most part. It really just isn't Team Fortress anymore, not with the silly drop system, unlocks, crafting, etc.

[Laggy]

Try out competitive play Science, trust me it does NOT lack team work it takes years to become a master at true teamwork.

[Grassman7z7]

Why do we care so much about the drops anyhow?
I mean, any of the weapons I've had for a LONG time. I appreciate the options the weapons give (Some of them, at least) so I'm no longer concerned about drops. Sure, a hat would be nice, but what does that do for you? Make you more noticeable to a sniper?
I have not crafted a thing yet, and feel no need to. I already have all the weapons, and I'd need a million more to craft a hat, so it does not concern me at all.
Anything that is dropped will either be a repeat weapon, or a hat. If it is a hat, it makes no difference to the game, and if it is a weapon, I've already got it. None of these new systems change the game at all for me.

I think a major part of this dislike is brought upon by the player's themselves. Why are you whining about the drop system? You can already (And probably already have) unlock them by skill, bypassing the drop system. Chances are, you'll get the weapons long before you get the resources to craft them.
These new systems really only apply to people who are A. Lucky, or B. Not skilled enough to collect/farm achievements. So what are you whining about?

With the limited classes, I do like that idea. However, I would recommend letting us vote/letting Admins determine how many. Sometimes its fun having an All Scout round, but definitely not always.

I am getting sick of Demos, but honestly, I'd never play the class otherwise. Just don't have fun as Demo, and if another build (One that needs some fixing, for sure) is one that I'd play, then it only expands my play options.

My theory? Quit whining and play. The only systems that need to be fixed are balance issues, and that will either be patched by the developers or turned off by the Server Admin (as has already been done.)

EDIT: As for people not playing as a team, that has always, and will always continue to, happened. Playing on public servers does that. Go play some DotA and you'll learn what I mean. If you get a group that knows how to play as a team, and are organized, then they will play.
When I first started playing TF2, there was almost no teamwork on the servers I played on. It was always two teams running at each other mindlessly. It isn't until you find a good group of people when you start getting teamwork.

[-={ICE}=-Cobra]

Try out competitive play Science, trust me it does NOT lack team work it takes years to become a master at true teamwork.

Yes competitive TF is a fantastic thing to spend "years" on. Lord knows there are thousands of companies that won't even look at a resume unless you have competitive video gaming listed.

[Laggy]

Not saying you have to spend years in it, but if you are looking for team work you can play competitively.

[thewiredknight]

I frankly don't care what happens I just want phlorph to get freaking populated again. Yeah the game isn't what it used to be but it's still fun imo. Honestly the only thing I hate is the demo's update because it intrinsically changed the class, not merely playstyle but his entire function. But the demo and soldier will likely be nerfed like all updates have been.

Teamwork is hit or miss, as far as I've always been able to tell the regulars work well with each other but the others are hit or miss which is to be expected. I'll take the limit on class numbers so we don't get overun with demos for right now and hope things will improve.

[-={ICE}=-Cobra]

Not saying you have to spend years in it,

it takes years to become a master at true teamwork.

just saying...

[Grassman7z7]

The biggest issue for populating the server is we are all camping out, waiting for someone else to join. When no one joins, it doesn't fill.
We need to utilize that Steam Group more. Other than that, I don't see a solution.

[Laggy]

You don't have to master teamwork to play competitive, if you want to make cash out of competitive yes.

[thewiredknight]

Phlorph announcemets aren't as useful it seems, probably going to have to go back to the old reliable method of spamming invites.

[Zervun]

Well, the server is here for however you want to use it. Another game, sure. Another 2 games? sure. The more we add though the more maintenance.

Personally I don't care what happens as long as we all get to play together and have a community. While I rarely play TF2 (I'm just not into it any more) the community is solid. The game just has little teamwork on pubs and the competitive scene is a joke except in europe.

Unfortunately there really isn't anywhere to go now. I can't wait for NS2, but they aren't even 100% going to release a linux server (which is a utter joke). I'm open to other suggestions for the server as well. I have bandwidth, and I do spend at least 10+ hours on the server a week tweaking, updating and so forth. BF2 Bad Company just announced no private servers (ala IW bullshit).

Competitive TF2 is a complete joke except in Europe where it is fairly popular i.e. ETF2L. Tf2 was balanced around a 12v12 game, and most of the competitive games revolve around 6v6. That isn't even beginning the issues with tf2 competitively.

They also change the game constantly with class upgrades and changes. If anyone has paid attention to competitive gaming, most of the popular games are fairly stagnant with slow changes over multiple years (ala CS).

If they were so concerned about competitive play, Valve would have released all the updates at once.

Europe is still doing ok, with over 3k in the ETFL, but still people are complaining. Having followed competitive gaming for years, TF2 has been the worst abomination on the scene. I mean seriously no-one really takes TF2 as serious competitive gaming except for the ETFL, which do, do a great job about it. To many changes, to many BS changes, and a game not designed around anything less than at least 10v10 ruins it.

There are a massive amount that have bought/play tf2, however the competitive numbers are minuscule. Other games have had better competitive numbers at WAY less overall people actually playing of the game.

I'm sure someone who trys or does play competitively will chime in "blasphemy!" but if you have paid attention to the competitive scene over the last 6 years, tf2 is a joke competitively in popularity. A goggle search sheds the light on that nicely.

Out of the big past competitive games that were most popular for a bit we have CS, CS:S, DoD:S, BF2, NS, TF and some others. They were in a different league competitively than TF2 and many had a fraction of the player base.

Sadly TF2 is like the WOW of FPS. It can take a great deal to master, but any idiot can play it and be semi successful. It also has above all other games, brought forth the extreme e-penis swinging idiots, alot of a younger age further tarnishing the stereotype. It makes that same reference seem somewhat funny if you relate it to CS.

In the end though it's what you guys want. I can tweak the server how the majority wants, and add whatever you need. This game has unfortunately been flawed from the start for community vs. CS. Respawn on a timer ftl.

[Levi]

I like tf2.

[Fraggles]

Z said a few things I was going to. I was even going to say TF2? more like World of TF2craft.
Cobra, as for competitive gaming getting you nowhere, I know two blokes who got sent to China three years in a row for the world championships of War3, and now one of them is a advertising manager for one of Australia's top Video game companies. He spends most of his time in other countries being a spokesperson. The other is in the QA department and well on his way to the engine room at Krome. (The company who's engine's used in Starwars: The Force Unleashed.) Also happens to be the engine my brother has basically made from scratch.
It depends on what field you want to go into. Sure if you want to be a pro tennis instructor, having a background in professional gaming isn't a bolster. But in some situations, having a firm grounding is useful.

Having said that, I don't think TF2 is practical to have as competitive. Simply because it's not balanced for a 6v6. That's not even half the amount you need for a good game. =)

The main issue with phlorph lately is that when it's starting to fill up, too many Demomen fuck it up. This cap should solve the issue, but we'll see.

Thanks for all your hard work Z.

[Grassman7z7]

Really Appreciate all the work, Z. PHLORPH is the only server I play on, and its through your hard work and the good people who play.

TF2 Has by far been my favorite game to play online, and I still waste the most time on it.
Spam, Group, it doesn't matter to me. Heck, make me a group admin and I'll spam whenever I'm willing to play. I usually respond to them, if I have the time to play.

[Milesprower]

I think you pointed out two of the most extreme cases possible Fraggles, as the majority of people who play competitively will accomplish nothing with it. I've played 2D fighters competitively in tournaments before, but I don't accredit any of my personal, financial, or professional accomplishments to that. I just do it because I have a great love for 2D fighters, which is what most competitive players do. They play it because they enjoy it.

As for the drop system/unlock system/whatever. It's a silly system that has no purpose in a FPS. They added it because love instant gratification. And what better way of adding more of that, then adding the chance to randomly get items while playing the game. Sure, they're absolutely useless, but people still want them anyways. Look at World of Warcraft if you want to see how well it works.
Does that mean I want to deal with that stuff while playing an FPS? God no, I'll play an MMO if I want that kind of stuff.

I've quickly found other things to occupy my time with instead of TF2, simply because TF2 really isn't a very good game anymore.
Cheers to Zervun though, you're doing a fantastic job with the server. It's too bad about BF:BC2 not allowing private servers. It's an idiotic move, just like CoD:MW2.

Also, get this. There's better teamwork in World of Warcraft PUG's than there is in Public servers in TF2.

[arnold.from.oregon]

I spent the last half hour writing a five paragraph standard format essay on the consecutively more fucked-up updates for TF2. Then I realized most of you fellas don't give a rats ass about anyone's opinion and probably won't even read this truncated version.

I played the SOE game "Planetside" from beta. I still consider it one of the best MMO games *released.* I quit when they reassigned the dev team, brought in a cheap new one, and turned the thing into a retarded "WHAT IF" anime battle. The same thing is happening with TF2. The big difference is that Valve already has all the money I'll put into Team Fortress and does not give a goddamn fuck about my opinion anymore. They are trying to appeal to those that have not already bought the game. Good business strategy. Wrecks my game. A lot of 3rd party devs have known this for a while; Valve does not care about the original fanbase or community any more. Even releasing simple offsets is not worth their time. They're going for the remaining market and it is not us.

Bye guys. I'm playing sporadically on the EXO server now simply for the lack of care it provides. I haven't had a fun game on Phlorph in well over a month. Thanks, demomen & scouts, for clearing the server three times daily.

@Zervun: No offense intended. I've been on your server for years (remember the Fairbanks Ping-Man guy?). It's just not fun anymore.

Read your whole post Salt. I hope to see you again. Soon

[arnold.from.oregon]

...but any idiot can play it and be semi successful...

I know a job opening would pop up for me.

[-={ICE}=-Cobra]

Cobra, as for competitive gaming getting you nowhere,

Didn't say that, I did allude to it though,

I know two blokes who got sent to China three years in a row for the world championships of War3, and now one of them is a advertising manager for one of Australia's top Video game companies.

That would be an awesome gig, I am jealous,

and now one of them is a advertising manager for one of Australia's top Video game companies. He spends most of his time in other countries being a spokesperson. The other is in the QA department and well on his way to the engine room at Krome.

Was War3 their major or minor?

[Grassman7z7]

...As for the drop system/unlock system/whatever. It's a silly system that has no purpose in a FPS. They added it because [1] love instant gratification...

Does that mean I want to deal with that stuff while playing an FPS? God no, I'll play an MMO if I want that kind of stuff.[2]


Also, get this. There's better teamwork in World of Warcraft PUG's than there is in Public servers in TF2.[3]

[1]I think you left some important words out there.

[2]The thing is, you don't have to deal with this system at all. I don't change my load out, I don't receive drops, I don't craft, I don't do ANYTHING, except use the weapons, that has to do with an item drop system. If I really feel like changing a weapon or two, it is no bigger of a deal than it is to switch classes. With an RPG, it is imperative that you keep your equipment up-to-date. There is none of that in TF2 (Except things that are a straight buff, but that is a separate issue altogether. Plus, you already have it, so there's no issue there.)

[3]That is because TF2 is an FPS, and not an RPG. These are two completely different genres and, unfortunately, the FPS mindset is not teamwork based. Just look at games like Halo and BioShock and FO3 and MoH and Deus Ex and all the others. Usually, you are just on your own, killing as much as you can. With RPGs, even if they are single player, you have a lot more required co-operation.

Look at it this way. As you play WoW, the enemy becomes stronger. At some point, they become too strong for one person to take on, so you HAVE to team up to succeed. To the contrary, TF2's enemies, due to being random people, do not always require teamwork to overcome. As such, teamwork is not as embedded, and therefore thrown out the window by the average user.

[Fraggles]

Was War3 their major or minor?
Major. It was a right cunt trying to sleep with them yelling "AWW MAN, BUILD YOUR MOONWELLS ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE FUCKING GULLY OR YOU'RE WASTING TIME GETTING THE MOBS TO THE BACK OF YOUR BUILD!" "FUCKING GG, GG NO FUCKING RE!" and hearing constant "YOUR SACRED GROVE IS BEING DESECRATED!" "I AM THE IRON HAAAAND OF JUSTICE!"
It was horrible.
I hated living with them.

[thewiredknight]

Frankly I'd be more concerned if TF2 wound up like this

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs42/f/2009/083/3/5/TF2_Kart___Colored_by_appletrees.jpg

[SATAn]

Salt lick, I read your whole post. I'd love to keep you around and playing, especially if you would quit complaining and just enjoy the game :D

I don't see how you guys can praise valve making it so you can play offense or defense with other classes, and then complain when they do that for the demo. Valve gave the demoman 2 completely different options for play, making it appeal to more people. Usually when valve do their updates they make choices that will allow a neglected class to be played more, this time it worked very well. Now the demo can be useful in both offensive and defensive roles, I think that's awesome.

Sure there is currently an over-saturation of demomen at the moment, just like with EVERY update. I've already quit playing it so much just because you guys bitch and I have to compromise or rage quitting will commence. People will stop playing demo within the next week or two and everything will be back to normal, don't make this out to be any worse than any other update.

[Fraggles]

Satan... It's a pretty common consensus that it is. When they Nerf his weapons it should be okay. But as things are, it's basically a load of tripe.

[SATAn]

there is no difference with this update than any other update, every update people say it is broken, then the next update comes out and it's the end of the world all over again.

[SATAn]

just because the demo can be an offensive class now doesn't mean the entire game is broken either

[Laggy]

So that's what War3 I have always and have always seen it abbreviated wc3.

[Levi]

I expect TF2 to regain much of its fun when we add in some customs and I release my chemical agent into the ocean that selectively only poisons people who play sniper.

[Grassman7z7]

SATAn has some excellent points.
I never touch Demo because I hate playing him defensively, and on Offense I'd rather be another class. With this new update, the demoman makes a complete swap - Defense to Offense. One of the big problems VALVe has had with the Demo is using his Stickybomb Launcher offensively. This led to the class being used not as intended, and the Grenade Launcher never being touched. With the Targe and Eyelander, Not only does he lose his Sticky, but he gains offensive power. This idea makes me very happy.

Every update has had the same reactions, and there's always been way too many of a single class after the update. Soon enough it will slow down. I just think that the Demo is the most obnoxious of the "Too many using the new stuff," and is garnering such a reaction.

I love the idea. There just needs to be less incentive (Nerf) to use the Sword, and more incentive to use the Grenade Launcher. I still see no one using it, and this update was supposed to promote it's use.

My theory is that you can close just about the same distance with the Targe as you can with the Grenade Launcher, so why not just Charge in there and get more powerful, accurate, and awesome attacks. They should have removed the new Sticky and made a new Grenade launcher.

[Ripskin]

just because the demo can be an offensive class now doesn't mean the entire game is broken either

One word on old Demo style not being offensive. Kefka.

Stickies and pipes can very offensive. I considered the Demo more offensive than defensive anyway, and most people play him that way. Pushing head to blow SG's and spawn camp, but its up to the player to pick that option.

His sword is almost always a 1 hit kill, stronger than any mele weapon, and it does not fit his character. That is my complaint. It does not allow him to play offensively any more than my beloved Kukri does me.

I love TF2 and play it, but when its bs like that I back off for a while until the nerf comes. The Spy and Sniper updates were very balanced out the door. Very few complained about them in that regard, same with Medic and Heavy overall.

[Milesprower]

[1]I think you left some important words out there.

[2]The thing is, you don't have to deal with this system at all. I don't change my load out, I don't receive drops, I don't craft, I don't do ANYTHING, except use the weapons, that has to do with an item drop system. If I really feel like changing a weapon or two, it is no bigger of a deal than it is to switch classes. With an RPG, it is imperative that you keep your equipment up-to-date. There is none of that in TF2 (Except things that are a straight buff, but that is a separate issue altogether. Plus, you already have it, so there's no issue there.)

[3]That is because TF2 is an FPS, and not an RPG. These are two completely different genres and, unfortunately, the FPS mindset is not teamwork based. Just look at games like Halo and BioShock and FO3 and MoH and Deus Ex and all the others. Usually, you are just on your own, killing as much as you can. With RPGs, even if they are single player, you have a lot more required co-operation.

Look at it this way. As you play WoW, the enemy becomes stronger. At some point, they become too strong for one person to take on, so you HAVE to team up to succeed. To the contrary, TF2's enemies, due to being random people, do not always require teamwork to overcome. As such, teamwork is not as embedded, and therefore thrown out the window by the average user.

Should have added they, but I can't be ass'ed to correct it.
TF2 is an FPS, not an RPG. It is not an FPRPG either. Therefore, I do not expect some stupid drop system to be included in my game. I do not expect them to separately release class updates, leaving out other classes and causing these wonderful spikes where everyone plays two classes for the next month or two.

Also, TF2 and WoW are both Online Games. Online Interaction implies that you will be interacting with, or against, or possibly both, with other players in an online gaming environment. Therefore, one would strongly assume, that regardless of the game type, players would work together to accomplish a goal. In World of Warcraft, it's completing a dungeon/raid. In Team Fortress 2, it's accomplishing the set objective for the map. Saying the FPS mindset is not teamwork is absolute crap. The entire Rainbow Six set of games has been completely dependent upon teamwork since the first. Battlefield has always implied cooperation with your teammates in order to secure an objective. Team Fortress 2 is no different than these. Also, how does a single player game require more cooperation? Single player, unless I'm mistaken, implies ONE PERSON. Hence Single.

As for other classes filling new roles, I could care less about that. To be honest, I hate the entire class sytem in Team Fortress 2, but that's because I've always been a Quake/Unreal junkie for my FPS fill.

tl;dr
Team Fortress 2 has ceased to be an enjoyable game for me anymore. And if you try to argue with me about that, you're a twat for trying to argue someone else's opinion on a matter. As they are stating their opinion about something, not fact.

[SATAn]

Science you're totally wrong. You love team fortress 2.

[Grassman7z7]

SATAn's right. You love it.

Just wasn't sure who or what you were trying to reference. No good for me to assume, here.

Playing Single Player Games that have you leading a team builds Teamwork. Play an RPG where you get a party, you learn to work together by forcing these characters to work together. Also, with good AI (Very rare) you will have to work with the AI. Single Player, still a team.

I think complaining about changing classes around while also having a grudge against the system itself is some inherently broken Logic. You talk about Quake and Unreal, classic (And great) FPSs, but their design theory is far more different than TF2's. Back when technology was limited and the industry was new (At least for the genre) things worked differently. I played Quake 4 the other day, and it holds strong to the classic feel, which I appreciated, but you can't try to make TF2 into that game.

Go play MW2. That game is almost entirely based on Online play, yet I have yet to see a lick of Teamwork in that game (And it is even class based, to a small extent.) Online does not inherit teamwork. At least, not with average users. Additionally, Arena Games (Quake III, Unreal Tournament Series, Tribes, etc.) have very little teamwork. You are working for a goal, for sure, be it Frags or Flags or Zones, but it is rare to have people work as a team. You just run around (Usually abnormally fast) trying to find the biggest gun, while the guy who has the biggest gun romps all over everyone else.

Battlefield has always had more Teamwork Orientation, but not that much. Usually it consists of sitting around, waiting for the jet to spawn so you can hop in it and fly into a building. The closest thing to teamwork is when multiple people manage to hop into an APC before the driver gets too far away from the spawn, but usually no one cares about their teammates - simply their own lives and getting kills/the objective.

Rainbow 6 has been squad orientated, Very much and very well (A rare quality to find) but was largely single player. When playing online, I've still only experienced people running around on their own, getting themselves killed. In no way is it a successful strategy, but it is the popular one.

tl;dr
TF2 is not immune to the shortcomings of every other FPS/Online game. It does it more excellently, and success is a lot more possible when proper classes/teamwork is used than on many other games, but that does not stop the masses from trying their usual retarded strategies, regardless of whether or not there are new items.
Plus, if you didn't like it in the first place, why complain about the changes?

wallOfText.end();

[Milesprower]

Dear Grassman.
You are a twat.

Love,
Science

P.S.
I hate TF2 Satan.
P.P.S.
Who said I never liked TF2? Again Grassman, you are a twat.

[Grassman7z7]

I never said that you didn't like TF2 (And rather, the Class system that the entire game is based on,) but thanks for twisting my words. Name calling is a great way to win arguments, too.

Ripskin - The Demo is excellent as an Offensive player with the original build, but to the point where the offensive weapon, the Grenade Launcher, isn't used nearly as much as the Defensive weapon for offense. I suppose it all worked the way it was, but VALVe has been trying their best to get players to stop using the Sticky Launcher without making it useless for Defense. I would have gone with a buff for the Grenade Launcher, but for some reason they chose to eliminate the Sticky launcher and replace it with the Targe to encourage Offense (But instead, this offense has turned entirely to Sword use instead of Grenades.)
The sword needs a good nerf, and I would gladly have it replaced by a better Grenade launcher, so I suppose here's to hoping they figure out how to fix it.

[Your_Typical_Mental]

Dear Grassman.
You are a twat.

Love,
Science

P.S.
I hate TF2 Satan.
P.P.S.
Who said I never liked TF2? Again Grassman, you are a twat.

Let's be civil here, Phlorph is above devolving into flame wars.

[SATAn]

I'm pretty sure science also loves grassman.

[Grassman7z7]

I love Grassman

[thewiredknight]

One word on old Demo style not being offensive. Kefka.

Stickies and pipes can very offensive. I considered the Demo more offensive than defensive anyway, and most people play him that way. Pushing head to blow SG's and spawn camp, but its up to the player to pick that option.

His sword is almost always a 1 hit kill, stronger than any mele weapon, and it does not fit his character. That is my complaint. It does not allow him to play offensively any more than my beloved Kukri does me.

I love TF2 and play it, but when its bs like that I back off for a while until the nerf comes. The Spy and Sniper updates were very balanced out the door. Very few complained about them in that regard, same with Medic and Heavy overall.

Well in the case of spy and sniper it didn't fundamentally change their class at all. It still required teh same skill set and ability to play. Probably the biggest change to how they played was the fact that the sniper coudl not fight from mid range thanks to the bow.

The problem with the demo update is that it gives him the same bad name the pyro got with the unerfed backburner. It practically encourages players to charge in recklessly because of high damage and absurd health so that you can get in and out without tremendous danger to oneself.

The thing I've always seen about TF2 is that it's ar risk reward system for every class.

The problem is that the demo with sword and shield has almost no risk, the two combined of high health and damage reduction mean he has very little to worry about.

[Levi]

I'm not convinced that the sword and shield are THAT great. I'm still getting killed more by pipes than the sword. I admit the damage reduction from the targe is a bit rough for soldiers and pyros(and other demomen). But most of the times I've been killed by the eyelander are when I'm distracted by something else more dangerous(scouts and other soldiers usually).

When there starts to be a fair number of eyelander demomen I've been switching to natasha heavy. They don't stand a chance.

[Milesprower]

Dear Grassman,
You're still a twat.
Love,
Science

P.S.
I still love you.
P.P.S.
I still hate TF2.
P.P.P.S.
I stopped liking TF2 a few months after the Spy/Sniper update.
P.P.P.P.S.
I figured I could go with another P.S.
P.P.P.P.P.S.
If you haven't figured it out yet, I'm not particularly serious about anything I've said this entire time.

[SheriffPony]

So I've generally neglected this post as a poem until I found out today that class restrictions were thrown up in game. I've got to agree with Satan and say, get over it people. Every update that was released from the medic to soldier/demo has always seen a huge influx of that class followed by the likes of people complaining non stop about how the game is broken now. I honestly don't think class restrictions are necessary, and they really aren't that fun to have. You know how you counter a sword demo? With a shotgun or sniper smg or scattergun or pistol or a sentry gun (they can't kill them so well anymore if they have the shield) or minigun. It's really not that hard. I think a lot of people are complaining because they suddenly have to change their play tactic against the demo when before they knew exactly what they needed to do to kill him. It's the same thing with the equalizer, if I'm a pyro or a sword demo, I know I can't stay in close with a soldier because he can 1 hit me with it every time. Instead of whining non-stop about it, I change my play tactics. Everyone seems ok now with the new roles every other character had adopted but there is still this sudden outrage and sense of having been offended by valve for this update. Time will pass, people will play less demo, and all you have to do is change your tactics against sword wielding demos. If you see one, switch to your secondary weapon and own him, or maybe try not to take him on in melee one on one. Simple, and easy. For the soldier, don't get in close if they have the equalizer and don't jump that much to avoid mini crits. For scouts, use a sentry gun or natascha, it's designed to counter the scouts. With each update the nature of the game changes. Adapt your play style or be left behind. And please, remove the class limit.

[Grassman7z7]

<stuff that makes sense>

I think that you have some pretty valid points there. However, with the class restrictions, I think it is in our best interests to leave at least the Demoman one up until things cool down a bit. Restricting Demos will definitely help with that.

At some point the topic should be brought up again, and we can decide if we've gotten over the new update enough to get things back to how they used to be.

[SATAn]

and how are we supposed to know if people have lost interest in playing demo if we're restricted to 1 per team? Scout is somewhat legit when there is a small game going but only 1 per team pretty much sucks

[Choco]

It should be restricted to 2 demos and 2 scouts per team.

[Ripskin]

I am fine without restrictions. I change how I play every minute to suit what I am facing. Changing classes etc. I am against this update as the sword and shield do not match the character and are too powerful.

I said the same thing until they "fixed" that jack ass baseball of the scouts. It is still not quite right (accuracy) but it is much more balanced now that I can keep running around when hit with it.

While all of the updates have required a few fixes and work, and of course dealing the 200% class number increase for a few months; I have never asked WHY or WTF they put in a weapon or anything as they fit with the character. Sword, shield and banner remove things from other classes, lead to more grief'ing and just dont make sense.

My opinion.

Removal of the restrictions on classes is fine. I get bored and go elsewhere when its all scouts and such. Maybe make the limitations accessible to admins if it becomes a problem while playing.

[Fraggles]

The admins are the problem. They are the ones who are the strong asshole classes. Sorry Satan and Pony, you know I love you both. That's why I leave when I'm not having fun. So I don't need to ruin your fun. I don't want to ask you not to play what you want. =)

But really, it's fine. Who cares what two people think(Salt and I). Which is why the whole thing came about. I kinda like the restrictions. But they don't need to be there, the server's not up for me. It's up for everybody.
First time I've played on Phlorph since they've been about was tonight. The game was not super packed, but it was still not terrible. I enjoyed Steel... Something I rarely do. Also I enjoyed Turbine.
I didn't mean to start a shit storm here, I wrote a poem about something I'm passionate about, because I'm a artsy person. It's what I do. I was amused with the outcome, so I posted it here, among people I like. I was expecting things more like "Hehe, I liked this bit." Or "You have waaaay too much time on your hands."

[-={ICE}=-Cobra]

The admins are the problem.

http://www.paulaltott.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/r_01.jpg

I think some clarification may be needed, the admins south of the 49th parallel may be problematic but the 3 cool Canadain admins are tits right?

:D:D:D

p.s.

I put smiley faces there so everyone knows I was kidding...maybe...no I was...maybe...

[SATAn]

well, 1 canadian admin is a total cunt, and the other 2 are non existant on the actual server.

[Fraggles]

Who are the other two Admins? o,o.
Also Cobra, you don't need me to tell you you're special. You already know.
<3<3<3
:D:D:D
Do the smiles mean I'm kidding? You'll never know.

Also is Arnold a Admin? Because he doesn't play the mean classes either.

I don't know who the admins are. *flails*

[Levi]

I should be an admin. We'll play nothing but custom maps and all snipers will be auto-kicked =)

[-={ICE}=-Cobra]

Who are the other two Admins?

Also is Arnold a Admin? Because he doesn't play the mean classes either.



Worry and Anik/Tireboy

I spoke too soon, Arnold should be Canadian because of his level of cool.

[Fraggles]

Worry never plays.
But Tyreboy's leet too. Thumbs up for awesome soldiers.

[Milesprower]

I dunno, the only Canadian Admin I know of is a total cunt.
I mean, he's sooooooo old. Coooooooldbra.

Also, who cares what I think about TF2 as well, I don't play the darn game anymore because it's just not fun to me.

I even worked out a sweet equation.

fu^N (Fun) = TITS (Time It TakeS) + ASS (Available Social friendS) + ALF (Actual Level of Fun) / GAYTime (Game And Ye-Olde-Merry-Making Time)

So, TITS = 3 hours, ASS = 11, ALF = 1, GAYTime = 8. So, 3+11+1 = 15, divided by 8. So fu^N = 1.75fntns (that's Funtons, a new metric measurement for fu^N.)
That's pretty low on the scale, so as you can see, TF2 is clearly not a sound use of my GAYTime.

[SATAn]

Cobra is a cunt indeed, old as well. Science has done nothing but use reason and logic here to convey these facts PERFECT!

I am more leniant with my GAYTime than science however, so I'll continue to play tf2.

Server admins should be up to date, don't know if upholder and protector are still admin though. (http://community.phlorph.com/showgroups.php)

[-={ICE}=-Cobra]

Also, who cares what I think about TF2 as well, I don't play the darn game anymore because it's just not fun to me.




Good fuck off...

[Levi]

Whenever I am not having fun, I just switch to pyro. Its really hard not to have fun as a pyro.

[Milesprower]

Good fuck off...

Grumpy ol' Cobra needs a nap methinks.

Phlorph's community isn't reserved for TF2, is it?

[Ripskin]

Could use a refresh to the admins, there are several in that list who have not been on in quite a while....

[SATAn]

only protector and upholder, who I mentioned in that post. They appear once in a very great while

[Zervun]

It should be restricted to 2 demos and 2 scouts per team.

That is what it is currently set at I'm pretty positive

[-={ICE}=-Cobra]

That is what it is currently set at I'm pretty positive

Like other issues this is inccorect. It's 2 of any class.

[Your_Typical_Mental]

I should be an admin. We'll play nothing but custom maps and all snipers will be auto-kicked =)

What do have against me.

I could be an admin, I'm on enough.

[-={ICE}=-Cobra]

What do have against me.

I could be an admin, I'm on enough.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/joestate/TypicalMentalDisappoint.jpg

[Zervun]

Like other issues this is inccorect. It's 2 of any class.

Hrm, I'll look at it when I get home. What other issues are you talking about? Aside from the homepage status update (which I think should be fixed now).

[-={ICE}=-Cobra]

Hrm, I'll look at it when I get home. What other issues are you talking about? Aside from the homepage status update (which I think should be fixed now).

Hmm I will link you to a "few" of the posts I have in the brothel. When was the front page fixed? Last few hours?

http://community.phlorph.com/showthread.php?t=1257

Post # 4

[Levi]

What do have against me.

I could be an admin, I'm on enough.


I don't have anything against you. Except after you headshot me three times in a row just after a long walk to the battlefield on my short stubby slow soldier legs. =)